This is part of a series of interviews that I conducted as part of The Chevrons Project. Tony is a volunteer who I met in Ukraine back in the summer of 2023. He’s very involved with NAFO, having designed several chevrons for them. He is also a fella forger. In a previous post I’ve given an overview of his chevron design work, but here’s the transcript of our full interview. Enjoy!
Vic: First up, could you please tell me your name and a little bit about yourself?
Tony: So I’m Tony Keane. I’m- I guess, in my real job, I’m an associate professor of inorganic chemistry at University College Dublin. But I also am a volunteer with Front Line Kit in Lviv, at least five weeks a year. And also, I’m a Fella Forger for NAFO, the North Atlantic Fellas Organization. So that means that we’re the people who Photoshop the little dog pictures that members get.
Vic: Could you tell me a bit more about what you’ve done during your time in Ukraine?
Tony: Yeah, I initially went out after seeing a call from Front Line Kit that they needed more volunteers. At this point, we were mostly making dried soups for sending to troops on the front line. Over time that that turned into things like weaving camouflage nets and making energy bars. And then there was the big switch over to making drones for combat units, which I’ve been doing with them ever since. I also help out a little bit with things like patch and flag designs and logos and so on, and occasionally other sarcastic pictures as needed.
Vic: Cool, thank you for that. And could you tell me a bit more about NAFO? Like, what is the purpose of NAFO?
Tony: Well, NAFO, it’s an interesting one. It’s a very sort of organic organization, but basically, it’s just a lot of people who were on Twitter at the time wanted to do something to help the Ukrainians out. It started off with a small group of sort of military enthusiasts on Twitter who- one of whom had a particular avatar of a of a dog, and they were trying to get some funds raised for a particular unit, and somebody said, “I’ll give you $10 to any cause you want, if you’ll do me a version of that dog in a Belgian army uniform”. And then requests started flooding in. The whole thing coalesced. It became NAFO, as we understand it, and it’s grown ever since from there.
We know there’s probably about 20,000 people who’ve donated and made a little dog picture, and they usually continue to donate. And there’s an awful lot of people who are sort of like affiliated. It’s all very loose, there’s no actual structure. The only thing that’s actually organized is the shop[1]. But otherwise it’s just a lot of people who want to do something to help Ukraine.
Vic: And what’s the shop for?
Tony: The shop? It sells merchandise, t-shirts, hats, patches, mugs, all this sort of thing, usually with designs from the NAFO Forgers, especially the person who started it, Kama[2]. And the profits from that all go out to different Ukrainian causes.
Vic: Cool. So how do you decide which causes to fundraise for?
Tony: Most fellas, they kind of attach themselves to either a unit or, you know, a particular sort of civilian organization. There’s- there’s a lot of other fundraisers out there who they will support through donations. There’s a lot of different activities. So people will raffle items from Ukraine or that are related to that. Or, you know, they’ll produce these composite pictures, if you want your fella in on this big sort of design, you know, donate to this course and so on. So generally, it’s pretty organic. People donate where they want to donate to, you know. And there’s a lot of people out there asking for kit. So we often see posts from Ukrainians asking for help, raising money for drones or for vehicles or infantry first aid kits and so on. So, it’s completely disorganized, but works really well. In terms of the actual sort of NAFO shop itself, there’s sort of a roster of organizations to donate to, and that’s usually decided by the core NAFO team.
Vic: So there is actually a core team behind it?
Tony: Yeah… Well, there’s the people who run the shop and do the admin and stuff like that. Yeah, then you’ve also got people like the Fella Forgers, which is just, it’s an asylum of Photoshop users, really.
Vic: Is there any tracking of what happens with fellas? I remember seeing drama previously around trying to revoke someone’s fella?
Tony: There’s- all sorts of things. I mean, the only things we really keep are, there’s an archive of all the fellas we make. And not all of them are in there. Lots of people make their own. I mean, I made my own during the first week. Made a donation, Photoshopped my own because I saw they were busy, and that’s how I ended up getting into it. And otherwise there’s no control over it.
I mean, generally speaking, you know, there’s definitely been infiltration attempts. You know, people coming along trolling. They’ll either steal someone’s fellow or they’ll make a very small donation and get one, and then go off and try something. But they usually get outed pretty quickly. And once that happens, they get a bit bored and sort of wander off and put their picture back to whatever it was before. So, no, in a way- I mean, it’s completely disorganized. I mean, the O in NAFO stands for organization, but there’s no such thing really. I think that’s also why it’s been so successful. You know, you can’t do a decapitation strike if there’s no brain.
Vic: Yeah that makes sense. What do people do with their fellows once they’ve received one?
Tony: Usually, they’ll put them up as their avatar or PFP[3] on different social media platforms. So, I mean, if you have a look on Twitter using the hashtag #NAFO, you’ll see 1000s of people have got their little fella in the corner. And, otherwise people will have them added to sort of flags and big group pictures, that sort of thing.
There’s almost a whole aftermarket in people photoshopping bits on top of them and so on. Like the Tuba Division. You pay a bit of money, they’ll put a tuba on top of your fella’s head, that sort of thing. Lots of this sort of aftermarket stuff going on. But the fellas themselves, I mean, people Photoshop them into all sorts of pictures, yeah. We make fake adverts, often, a lot of the time riffing off of World War One and Two posters and similar things like that. So it’s not just sort of a badge of being in NAFO. It’s a usable object.
Vic: Do you think people are keen to see their fella like be associated with a different organization or associated with other fellas, or is it more the urge to donate is driving it, and it’s just it’s a nice thing that they get their picture photoshopped?
Tony: We do get a mixture of all sorts. There’s a lot of people who genuinely just want to help Ukrainian causes out, and the fellas a nice sort of thing for it, in return. Others, they really want to be part of NAFO because, you know, it’s quite good. It’s done a lot of things. We have some particularly high-level politicians. I mean, people like Ben Wallace, the former UK defence minister, Gabrielius Landsbergis, the former foreign minister of Lithuania, and even Kaja Kallas is a fella and she gave the opening address at the NAFO summit in Lithuania a few years ago. So you know, it’s an organization with a surprising amount of clout, considering that it’s not even an organization. So some people will very much like to be allied with that, because it makes them feel part of something a bit bigger than just sort of shouting into the void on Twitter.
You know, we always get a few people who do it, just for the clout and so on. You know, you can see sometimes that they’ll come in and go, “Hey, I’m one of you guys, you know, like my website or something”, they’ll usually wander off. But generally speaking, you know, people come into it because they want to help Ukraine in some form or another. Whether they want to be right in the organization or just doing their own thing. It’s a helpful badge to say it’s what you do.
Vic: Okay. And alongside the fellas, there’s also the generic NAFO icon?
Tony: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, we, we blatantly ripped off the NATO branding, just put a little fella in there. Yeah, there’s still a few patches of that knocking about as well! Yeah. I mean, it’s a useful play on words, and we haven’t been invaded by any NATO powers yet for ripping it off, so we assume it’s okay.
Vic: Fair. So let’s talk chevrons, or patches. Do people commonly get their fella turned into a physical patch?
Tony: Yeah, that’s actually very common. There’s a particular person based in Ukraine, Nina, who if you send your patch along, she’ll send it to the people who actually- well send your fella along, she sends it to her people and they’ll come back with a patch design. You approve it, and a whole set of patches will arrive in the post. You know, you pay a bit to get it set up, bit for production and a donation, and then you’ve got patches of your fella. I’d show mine off, but I’ve ended up trading 10 of them now, so I’m actually out for the minute. I keep meaning to get some more. But no, they’re very common. I’ve seen a few out and about in the wild, especially at the Ukraine rally in Dublin and so on. And every now and again, when I’m in Lviv, you’ll see someone with a fella patch. Often of their own fella, but people get very attached to them. I mean, considering that, they’re very crudely photoshopped for the most part. I mean, I don’t think any of us in the forge are sort of getting big bucks off the advertising firms or anything. But people do get very attached to their very crudely drawn fella.
Vic: So you mentioned you’ve traded a whole bunch of ones that you’ve had made up. Who are you trading them with?
Tony: Quite a range of people! They’re very popular out in Ukraine. I mean, chevrons and patches, they’re pretty much currency out there unofficially. People are always swapping them. It’s like every military vehicle I’ve seen or been in has a whole raft of them stuck to the fabric on the top there. And people will often have sort of secondary-sort of what they used to call morale patches on their uniforms or armour and stuff. So if they see something unusual, they’ll often want to have one or to trade one.
But then also people outside, I was coming back through Rzeszów in Poland to fly back here, and the taxi driver was like, “Hey, do you have any more of those Front Line Kit patches?” So I ended up losing the last one of those I had to spare to that. So no, they’re an amazingly tradable item. It makes NFTs look sort of, you know, very unsellable in comparison!
Vic: So you’re not just trading them for other NAFO fellas. You’re trading them for whatever chevrons?
Tony: That’s right. You know, often I’ll give away a patch or two to people I’ve interacted with, you know, not always. In fact, to be honest, most of them have just handed off, sometimes it’s a trade. So we did a trip up to the front line in July last year, and the Ukrainian driver and a few other people, I sort of handed out my last remaining ones of my Captain Scarlet fella patch to, and they were like, “Thanks!” you know, sort of thing. So, and it’s a nice moment of, sort of shared experiences and so on. You know like, “this idiot’s come out from Ireland, what’s he doing here? Oh, I’ve got a patch”, you know, sort of.
Vic: How do you feel when you hand out your patch to people in Ukraine?
Tony: Well, first of all, I’m literally always kicking myself because I’m putting an order for more <laughs>. But it’s this- it’s really nice to know that sort of, the people I’ve interacted with out there, you know, kind of feel it’s important enough to hang on to one. Because, I mean, as a volunteer, the idea is sort of, you know, I go out there, I get whatever work done is needed, and then sort of disappear again. I’m, you know, really, in the ideal case, I’d be completely anonymous, not seen by anyone, just do the job, get out and let people carry on with their lives and that. But I think- you know, when you interact with people, they’re genuinely curious about why you’re there, you know, what are you up to, that sort of thing. And then when they find out you’re volunteering and you’re doing something to help, that really means something to them, that people haven’t forgotten, and that people are still willing to help. So, yeah, when you hand off a patch, it’s kind of like, I don’t know- it’s, yeah, it’s great that people are really excited about it, that sort of thing, you know. I’m just, you know, a random foreign volunteer sort of thing. So when people are like, “Oh, great, I’ve got one of your patches”. It’s like, no, literally, I am no one, but I’m really glad you’re excited that sort of thing.
Vic: So do you think it helps morale, handing out patches to people?
Tony: I think so. I mean, for the reasons I was saying there, it’s sort of like, you know, people haven’t forgotten. People are still coming out to help, that sort of thing. I mean, you speak to people here, and you get this whole, “oh, is that still going on?” Like yeah, do not read the news? And I think Ukrainians do see that online as well. People going like, “Oh, you guys still fighting?”, “You haven’t been invaded yet”, that sort of thing. Yeah. So when people do come out and they are paying attention, and they are trying to help, they do try to understand a bit about what people there are going through. I think it does, does raise their morale a bit. And then the patch is a little sort of memento of that.
Vic: Do you think that it makes you feel more connected to people when you’ve exchanged a chevron with them?
Tony: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I’ve got one here, which I got from a soldier at the front line, there. He was coming back from [Redacted], and I had a little chat with him, sort of thing, and he signed off one of his little patches that he’d had on his uniform and handed it off. And I was like, wow, so there’s probably a soldier walking around with a Captain Scarlet patch on their uniform which is surreal, to be honest. And then I’ve got one from him himself, you know. And, I mean for me, that’s, that’s really something that sort of, you know- this, this guy that’s has been fighting out there all that time has given me a patch, you know, which is worth a lot more than wherever I’ve crudely photoshopped.
Vic: So with the one you just showed me, the guy like physically has signed it with a pen.
Tony: Yeah, that’s right, most people seem to carry sharpies out there.
Vic: Do you sign your chevrons before handing them off?
Tony: No, I’ve never thought of doing that, actually. But also the one I’ve got is fairly busy looking. You probably wouldn’t see it written on there very clearly. So I just hand them off, and at some point they’ll probably like rummage through a draw in 20 years and go, “what’s this? Who is that guy?” that sort of thing.
Vic: What do you do with the chevrons that you’ve received?
Tony: Well, there’s a good stack of them go on the rucksack. So we’ve got a few there.
Vic: Yeah, the NAFO octopus one. <laughs>
Tony: Yup! Funnily enough, I did design most of the ones on there, apart from these two-which it’s a standard NAFO one, and that’s a flag I picked up out there. But these ones were designed for different people in NAFO. And you know some of them, you do see out and about quite a lot, especially the Front Line Kit one. It’s still quite jarring every time I go to Lviv and there’s like, a flag up in a pub with that on there. I think the strangest one was, there was a market stall selling the Front Line Kit patches. And it was like “I designed that!” Very surreal. <laughs>
But I’ve also got a whole stack of others that- well a big wodge of them.
Yeah, we’ve got various things like general morale patches- So “good evening, we’re from Ukraine”[5], that sort of thing. Unit patches from the 93rd– so we visited them out in [Redacted] and they gave us a set of chevrons. From there, we bumped into a group flying some drones, and it’s kind of a bit harder to see, but that’s one of the nicest patches I’ve ever seen, that one.
So that was really nice to get that. Then, of course, there’s other silly ones I’ve designed. So- we had <laughs> somebody wanted a fella made, but a fella face on a Tribble, and it got very out of hand.
There’s now hundreds of these Tribble fellas. And we ended up making a division patch, you know, based around the fact that they’re essentially born pregnant. They just feed and breed. But in this case, they also hit Russians, so feed, breed, bonk[6], that sort of thing. And then sometimes- so for the most part, they live in the rucksack, yeah, unless there’s a reason to pop them on the outside.
Vic: Are there any particular considerations that you take into account when you’re designing chevrons?
Tony: Yeah, I try to make it so that anyone can wear it without causing sort of unnecessary offense, If you see what I mean? I can think of a certain volunteer who has an extremely unpleasant patch they wear out and about[7], you know, and I wouldn’t be caught dead saying something like that on a patch. So I always try and keep it at least reasonably family friendly. You know, if you want to go out and show your support, you want to show it to everyone, not sort of have it R-rated sort of thing. So, that.
And also making it as simple as possible to actually embroider the patch. The more colours you have, the more money it costs, the more intricate it is, the more chance you’ll lose detail when it’s rendered as sewing. So I try and keep them reasonably simplistic. Keep the number of colours down, try not to use photographic elements in the patch design, that sort of thing. And what I’ll also do is, sometimes I’ll employ my oldest kid to do a drawing, you know, off of photo. And they’re really, really good at cartooning. It’s just incredibly difficult to get them to actually do something <laughs>. But you know, they in particular, the- this one here.
This was, it’s based off of an NROL patch, so one of the spy satellite missions. But my oldest drew the little fella face for a cartoon fella, and that made it into that fella design, which then became a patch. But there’s now hundreds of fellas with that cartoon face that they’ve made. So, you know, that that helps a lot when it comes to the design aspects of patches. You know, being able to draw it a bit as a cartoon, that sort of thing.
But otherwise, you know, it’s really whatever the customer wants. And I say customer extremely guardedly. I’ve never been paid for any of this <laughs>. I think, one of the most traumatic patch designs was the original Front Line Kit patch. I had a design brief, went away and made that, took it back to them. “No. Different shape.” Comes back, different shape. “No. Change this. Change this.” I think it ended up going through about 17 iterations before we finally got one everyone was happy with. And by the end of it, it changed colour, twice, it changed shape, twice. The fella itself had changed the drone propellors had changed, the layout of the text was different. All this sort of thing. And, you know, at the time, it was like, “Oh, come on”. But like, it actually works really well in the end.
And I mean, the funny thing with it was originally did it in sort of subdued military colours. I was told, “No, no, no, bright blue and have some yellow and red and explosions on it and stuff”. And that was all grand. We got there eventually, and then about six months later, it’s like, “yeah, the guys at the front say the patch is really visible. Can we do a subdued version?” I just thought, I’m kind of glad I’m not there I’d have shot myself, I think. But no, in the end, with that, we ended up doing again about another eight colour iterations before we had a subdued version they were happy with.
So sometimes these things, the first go in, it is perfectly fine for the person who wants it. And others, it’s very long, sort of drawn out process, which is kind of fun as well.
Vic: Cool. So you mentioned that, you know, you go to a bar in Lviv and you see a flag that’s got, like, a logo that you’ve designed on it. So in general, like, how does it feel to see something- a design that you’ve created, have prolificated so much around Ukraine?
Tony: It’s really weird. Really, really weird. I mean, I’m not a graphic designer. I am very, very much, you know- I learned how to Photoshop things on an old image board, you know, for comedy pictures, but also how to prepare figures for scientific papers. So really, that was about the limit of what I used to do. So to see, you know, to see that patch, and that design turning up on patches and flags and bits of merch and everything, and then seeing them out in the wild, it’s, you know, it’s actually really nice, if a little jarring at the same time to be like, “what’s that doing there?” You know, I’m just not used to these things, sort of like ever spiralling out sort of thing.
Vic: In general, how have chevrons impacted your feelings of connectedness to Ukraine?
Tony: Quite a lot, I think. I know it sounds a funny sort of thing in a way. It’s just a bit of fabric and some stitching. But, you know, it’s one of these things that helps you to find other people who have got the same sort of interests. So, I was at a Ukraine rally a year ago in Dublin, and somebody ran after me and said, “Hey, you’re in NAFO”. And I was like, “yeah, yeah, one of the forgers,” that sort of thing, and they’d actually heard of that. So that that was pretty- this kid ran off pretty excited about this.
I’ve had a lot of people ask, what are the patches about? And then they’ve ended up sort of joining NAFO as well. So it’s been great way of connecting, it’s been a good recruitment tool. And also it is a way of showing your support as well. So, you know, on top of that, it’s a very tradable thing when you’re out there. So it’s yeah no, they’ve actually been surprisingly important, you know, for just basically, you know- because, I mean, these aren’t- the ones I deal with, mostly they’re not military patches. It doesn’t show you in a particular unit, and you don’t have sort of, like, the pride of all the battles you’ve been in and stuff. It’s like, literally, we’re just Photoshopping stuff. But at the same time, it’s definitely been, you know, it’s definitely been quite a thing for us. I think a lot of us in NAFO.
Vic: Cool. Have you- I appreciate you’ve been working with FLK[8] and because you designed the chevron, assumedly, that gets you a chevron for free. Have you received any chevrons through your volunteer work, like from an organization that you volunteered with?
Tony: I’ve only really volunteered with FLK. Most of the rest of the stuff- I’ve had unit patches where I’ve done something with that unit, so things like the 93rd brigade and so on. Received a few patches from them when we went and visited, dropped off some kit. Otherwise, I don’t really have any other organizations patches to hand, because, really, I’ve only worked with FLK and NAFO. And the thing is, in terms of sort of getting patches, with the NAFO ones, they’re all immediately sold[9]. I think it’s incredibly rare they don’t sell out within a day. So I never ask for one. I always make sure I buy one, because I know the money goes off somewhere useful, that sort of thing.
Vic: When you’ve been out in Ukraine, have you bought any chevrons from random market stalls, souvenir stores?
Tony: I have, yes. I’ve bought a few things for other people. So you often get the two flag patches, and you often see those for countries that have donated militarily. So, yeah, I don’t think I’ll ever be picking up a Ukraine/Irish one, because we haven’t sent anything.
Vic: They do sell those in Kyiv, I’ve bought one for [Redacted][10].
Tony: Oh, wow!
Vic: Yeah, I think it’s on Richard’s board right now.
Tony: Oh wow. Nice! I’ll keep an eye out for that. But I’ve bought things like, you see a lot of the Flork patches out there. Now those, those are pretty popular, so I’ve bought a few of those. People send them back every now and again. I’ll make like a little package up and send it from over there. And the patches and chevrons are always really, really welcome. You see huge numbers of them on market stalls there, so usually I pick up a couple of flag ones and then a couple of Flork ones, that sort of thing. But I don’t generally tend to buy sort of military based ones. I’m not in the military, and I’m not part of any of those units, so I’ve no right to be messing with that sort of thing.
Vic: So you wouldn’t feel comfortable say going out and buying another 93rd brigade chevron from a random store?
Tony: Not enormously. I mean, I’ve got, I’ve got the patches and chevrons from them that they’ve given me for things I’ve done, but I wouldn’t go out and buy one. I’ve, you know- yeah, it’d be a bit like turning up to work in a military uniform, because my mates in the army, that sort of thing. It’s, I don’t know. It’s, I mean, I know a lot of people collect patches from a lot of the units, and that’s grand. I mean, I used to have a load of stuff when I was a kid and that. But I wouldn’t, sort of wear them out, if you see what I mean. And I wouldn’t buy them for myself if there wasn’t sort of a good reason to. You know, it’s sort of, I don’t want to give an idea that I’m affiliated with a unit where I’ve not had any interaction with them, if that makes sense.
Vic: That makes sense. So do you feel that wearing a patch with some groups logo on it implies membership to that group?
Tony: Not necessarily membership, but sort of some sort of affiliation, that sort of thing. But then it’s very personal from person to person. Some people will have a whole set of patches they’ll proudly display because it’s all Ukrainian. It all means something, that sort of thing. And that’s perfectly grand. It’s just myself, sort of- I grew up in a very military area, and sort of, you know, each of the patches and chevrons and badges and something means something to that unit. And it would just feel a little off to be sort of wearing it as if, like- I definitely don’t want to give the impression I’m in any of these units. Yeah. I’m just a civilian volunteer sort of thing.
They have a great phrase in the army, which is Walting, you know, like Walter Mitty- pretending you had a whole career of something that you didn’t. And you get a lot of those people- they’ll dress in uniforms they’ve no right to, and wear medals they never earned, and things like that. And I think if I was going around a whole set of patches for units I’m not affiliated with it, it looks a little borderline to do with that. But then at the same time, I’m certainly not going to go pick holes in someone else doing that if they feel it’s doing something useful. If that makes sense, probably doesn’t.
Vic: I think it does. So if you meet someone, are you kind of trying to get a little look at their backpack and see what kind of chevrons they’re displaying?
Tony: <laughs> Absolutely, yeah! Especially if it’s someone who’s sort of, you know- you know, if the chevrons are anything I’ve got an interest in, it’s always sort of interesting to see what they are. And, you know, ask the person you saw, “Wow, what’s this one about?” that sort of thing. Because it’s great way to connect people with similar interests, that sort of thing. Although I’ve noticed around the uni here, especially, there’s a lot of sort of extremely generic looking patches that are just sort of fashion accessories on bags you can buy these days. So sometimes you’re like, “Oh, is that a? Oh no, no, no, that’s, that’s just something else until entirely”, you know?
Vic: So you can buy, like, chevrons in the stores in Ireland now?
Tony: Well, a lot of them, they come on things. There’s, a big thing for sort of military looking rucksacks at the moment. So if you go down to some of the big department stores, you’ll see sort of like “mil spec, really rugged, don’t actually take it up the front” rucksacks, that sort of thing. And they’ll often come with sort of vaguely chevron-y looking patches on there, which is designed to be as generic as possible so as to not get your shot if you’re captured. But, you know, it’s- but it kind of gives a look to the bag sort of thing. You see a lot of kids walking around here with, with that sort of thing, or, you know, even patches with like bands and stuff like that. And you know, it’s certainly sort of, you see a lot of students with band patches and stuff like that. They’re increasingly common now.
Vic: Hmm. I’ve not really seeing any round here, but I don’t really go outside that much.
Tony: <laughs> Oh yeah, now I get dozens of them walking past the office window each day.
Vic: So do you think that’s because of the area you’re in has a lot more, I guess, military presence, slash, military history?
Tony: Oh, what? Dublin? Well, history, yes. Military presence, not really. The closest thing you see is a couple of the cadets in the student canteen if they’re doing a course up here. Obviously, the Irish Defence Corps has a lot of its own sort of chevrons and patches, and a lot of those are extremely, sort of steeped in a lot of meaning for groups, units and so on here. Especially around the sort of War of Independence and that. And I’d, despite being sort of a joint citizen of the UK and Ireland, I’d never go with patches from either side on that one. It’s just not worth the hassle.
Vic: I’ve seen you can buy online, like, chevrons from people who’ve like, served in Afghanistan and served in various different wars. Do you think after this war, there’s going to be a bit of an aftermarket for chevrons?
Tony: Oh, absolutely. You see it amongst a lot of NAFO people who, you know, they sort of have huge collections. I’ve seen people with enormous cork boards with just every patch going. And there will always be collectors of things. You look at military memorabilia and chevrons, cap badges, these things have always been huge. And there’s always, yeah, I mean, I think one of the weirdest things is probably in about 20 years, you’ll start seeing sort of reproduction and counterfeit ones doing the rounds. You know, very particular units, that sort of thing, “oh yeah, this is definitely a cap badge from the defence of Bakhmut”, that sort of thing, like “really? looks pretty shiny and new to me!” that sort of thing. But yeah, and you see that of a lot of World War Two stuff, loads of reproduction stuff out there.
Vic: Do you reckon there’s ever going to be people selling your Chevron online?
Tony: <laughs> I don’t think anything I’ve done is that important, really. I mean, with the Front Line kit thing, you know, it’s certainly become recognizable. I’ve seen pictures of soldiers with the patches on their arms, in sort of other videos that, you know, FLK haven’t put out, that sort of thing. But, I suspect very much once it’s all over, it’ll all sort of quieten down a fair bit on that front. I mean, it’s very much a civilian organization sort of aiding the military, whereas usually memorabilia, it trades in actual military items, that sort of thing. I’ve got a father in law who’s got a whole house full of militaria, it’s… <laughs>
Vic: On that note, how do you feel about like people buying captured Russian chevrons?
Tony: Yeah. They’re interesting keepsakes, but I’d keep them out of sight myself if I ended up with any. I’ve no particular desire to pick any of these up. It’s either, you know, it’s either come off of a Russian soldier who’s been killed in which case, you know, that’s really down to the soldiers who did that, you know, if they take the patch or not. And a lot of the time, it’s done to sort of like, you know, help with counting figures and all this sort of stuff, and, you know, sometimes identifying people and all that sort of thing.
For me personally as a civilian I’ve no, sort of, call to have any of that stuff myself, so I wouldn’t personally touch it. And I also get the feeling, in like 30 years time, if you had a whole sort of draw of Russian patches and stuff, be a bit like, sort of going around your granddad’s place, and he’s got, like, a draw full of Nazi memorabilia. It’s like, “errrr”.
Yeah, I can understand picking it up at the time if you were there sort of thing, but hoarding it afterwards, especially if you weren’t part of the military, might look a little funny. But again, I have very odd opinions on things <laughs> so like, I wouldn’t take it as, you know, yeah. I mean saying that they do make good raffle items. I’ve seen units auctioning off Russian patches, and they do go for a good bit of money and that helps the Ukrainian cause. So by all means, you know, if someone’s got a feel that, yeah, this is a good thing to do, and it helps, go right ahead. I just wouldn’t myself.
Vic: Fair. So back to Ukrainian chevrons. Do you have a favourite chevron that you’ve received, or that you’ve made, or?
Tony: In terms of received, I think getting the patch, yeah, getting the chevrons from the 93rd, that that’s really something. They’re a fantastic unit that we’ve been associated with, with them with drone making, and they do great work, and they’re in some of the hottest places. So, you know, getting a patch from them as a recognition of some of the things we’ve done, that’s- you know, that’s, that’s pretty sort of humbling, really. So I mean, in terms of the actual Ukrainian chevrons, yeah, that one.
In terms of the stuff I’ve been messing about with, I’m really pleased to see the FLK one getting out there and becoming a recognizable thing. But I think in terms of just the sheer sort of sarcasm value, I think possibly doing that one <shows on camera>
Vic: The “just stopped oil” one
Tony: Yeah, yeah. I mean I actually forged that one while I was out in in Lviv. It was just a joke to start with, but as ever, I’m very good at taking them too far into physical form. So yeah, that’s what we ended up with.
Vic: Yeah, I mean, it’s ended up on my bag, so that one’s definitely out there!
Tony: Yeah <laughs> it’s very surreal. It’s like I made that someone else is wearing it, “aaaaa!”
Vic: Yeah, cool. So that’s all the questions I had. Do you have any general comments or rants you’d like to go on about chevrons?
Tony: I just find them fascinating as a thing. I mean, I have a little collection of ones that I’ve been given or mean something to me or that I’ve designed. And I know there are other people with enormous collections, and they’ve, you know, they go full Pokémon, “gotta get them all”, sort of thing. But it’s just a fascinating area that, yeah, has a lot of different meaning for a lot of people. It might be sort of a really important keepsake or memento, but for others, it’s kind of like a “scratch one off the list” sort of thing. But there’s, they’re also steeped with meaning themselves. It can show belonging or support and that sort of thing. And it’s, it’s just, it’s a hugely interesting area, yeah.
Vic: Well, I’ll show you my assignment when it’s all done and dusted. <laughs>
Tony: Cool, yeah, probably about 10% of that was usable, but like.
Vic: No, thank you. Thank you very much.
[1] NAFO online store: https://nafo-ofan.org/collections/all
[2] https://x.com/Kama_Kamilia
[3] Profile picture
[4] The red and black flag is the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and the Bandera wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Generally it is heavily associated with Bandera (a very important Ukrainian historical figure who is also highly controversial) and Ukrainian nationalism.
[5] Добрий вечір, ми з України is a very common slogan on souvenirs from Ukraine
[6] Bonk comes from a meme where a shibe is being hit with a stick with the sound effect “bonk” written on it. A shibe refers to a famous Shiba Inu dog commonly edited into memes. NAFO has taken the bonk sound effect and applied it to any time you’re hitting Russians, literally or figuratively. For instance, arguing with Russian trolls on Twitter counts as bonking them. Or, it could mean dropping a bomb from a drone on a Russian soldier.
[7] The same infamous expat mentioned in David’s interview
[8] Front Line Kit
[9] Official NAFO patches are generally sold as fundraisers for Ukraine
[10] Volunteer from Ireland
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