This is part of a series of interviews that I conducted as part of The Chevrons Project. David is a volunteer who has been heavily involved with rehabilitation for injured soldiers, and advocating for Ukraine back home in the US.
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Vic: So first up, if you could tell me your name and a little bit about yourself?
David: Sure. First Name, David, last name, Mitch. 40 years old, American. Live in Pennsylvania. Born and raised in America, obviously. Social worker by trade, passionate about Ukrainians futures, you know, free from Russian aggression, and spent six months in Ukraine in the past two years.
So I originally decided to volunteer with an organization called Safe Passage For Ukraine, working with veterans remotely. And then, after some discussion, you know, there was opportunities on the ground in Ukraine, and decided it was time to make some sacrifices and commitment to the people keeping freedom and democracy present in the world, especially in the West.
So I went to Ukraine in June of 2023 and when I wasn’t working with soldiers, I was helping them acclimate after their service was done. So whether they were injured or they had to, or you know, they mustered out of service for many reasons, some of it psychological, or their contract was up, or whatever. Some of them just needed help getting back home, because a lot of them were- you don’t get rich in the Ukrainian military. So I was able to meet a lot of great guys, Canadians, Brits, Australians, Americans, obviously.
Kept in touch with them to make sure after they got home settled, you know, what do you do about making sure that you have a job lined up? You know, how do you reconnect with people? I mean, that transition, we’re not even military, right, Vic, and we have some issues. I’m not gonna speak for you, but that transitionary period from Ukraine to, you know, our home is just, it’s just stark, a stark contrast between people’s lives here and Ukraine.
So, but in that, in that time, I wasn’t volunteering, I was passing through Ukraine. I was doing stuff with the kitchen, and that’s how I met Richard, everyone. You know, you start developing a network of friends and Ukrainians as well. I mean, I love just being in the presence of Ukrainians and sharing stories and words of encouragement and support. I mean, that’s what it’s all about. I mean, all the defence interest, the defenders and I mean, think about this lately, the defenders- like the most precious thing in Ukraine right now are the Ukrainians, and obviously the soldiers and the defenders on the front. Who are they protecting? They’re protecting the Ukrainians, you know, that we interact with. You know the most precious thing are the civilians, in a sense. Obviously the soldiers’ lives too. But you know the children, you know the elderly, the you know by any of them you know, are, you know, especially the most vulnerable, and they are the most precious thing in that country, is the people so.
So, yeah, that’s kind of summed it up. You know, I did some more stuff, obviously that, you know, when I was here for the past month. But, yeah, that’s a good, good summary.
Vic: Yeah, and you- excuse me, my voice is gone <coughs>. You did a bit of campaigning in the US on behalf of Ukraine?
David: Yeah, yeah. So after my five months, the first time in ‘23 I went, in February ‘24, to my senators office and shared with them, you know, wrote a report out essentially, and let them know, here’s what’s happening on the ground. And if we don’t- and this is under Biden, right? So I said, if we don’t give everything and more to Ukraine right now, there’s a high chance, or the chances start increasing, that there’s going to be a wider conflict in Europe, and depending on the outcome of the election, that could mean American troops on the ground. And that is something that I am not supportive of for the time being, because we could, or at that time, we could have done more. We could have given more in higher quantities. And unfortunately, the you know, my senator, Casey. He’s so the word we milquetoast. They call him Milquetoast Casey. He’s very- are you familiar with that word?
Vic: Yeah.
David: Okay, some Americans don’t know what that is <laughs>. I’m like, it’s a perfect word to describe some politicians. But, and he’s buddies with Biden, so he ended up just, just doing the bare minimum for Ukraine, I’d say. He might argue differently, but a lot of Democrats did the absolute bare minimum. They weren’t working against Ukraine, like a lot of Republicans were, and some Republicans were pro-Ukrainian as well. But, you’re seeing a lot of people now who are Republican, you know, changing their tune. So are they really pro-Ukrainian, or was it just strictly political?
But, yeah. Democrats screwed up big time, big time. They dropped the ball. This whole idea of freedom and democracy is conditional for Democrats. It really is, so. And I let them know that, it was an uncomfortable meeting. You know, I finished up the meeting. This is interesting, Vic. I said, So, okay, switching topics from Ukraine, and this is, there are four advisors in there. And I said, So what’s the plan for if Trump tries to declare fraud, you know, like in 2020? I said, is there any plans to stop Trump in a serious way? They all looked at me, and they kind of shook their head and said, “I mean, just vote. That’s it. All you can do is vote”. And I’m like, and that’s at that moment I realized that the Democrats were not going to save Ukraine. They’re not going to save even us. So that was an eye opening experience for me, was that advocacy trip to DC. Yeah.
Vic: Thank you for yeah, telling me a bit more about it, how it actually went down,
David: Yeah man, it was like, wild. I was like, oh, so the Democrats are just like, not present. I mean, they’re present, but they’re not going to be doing anything. They’re just going to be going along with the system. And the system is so broke, yet they can’t admit that, because that’s what keeps them in power.
So, you know, a lot of people blame the Republicans, and yes, they are at, you know, super majority percentage of the problem because they actively voted for Donald Trump. But you have a lot of Democrats- for example, the person that represents me right now, Representative Chrissy Houlahan, she voted to censure this representative named Al Green.
I’m not sure if you saw the headlines, but he was one of the guys that stood up during Trump’s address last Monday, this past Monday, and was just shouting and screaming. He had a cane, and he was just like, you know, essentially civil disobedience in the joint session of Congress. And he eventually had the speaker, Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, you know, had to get the sergeant at arms to remove Al Green. And so they voted the next couple days, and only 10 Democrats actually voted to censure. This gentleman, Al Green and censure is just a slap on the wrist. There’s nothing actually indicating that, but it goes on your record, so.
But so the Democrats are still not understanding what’s really at stake. When you have 10 of them going, “Oh no, we can’t, we can’t do civil disobedience in the house. That’s, you know, the decorum. Decorum is the main important thing”. And it’s like, we are so past that. We’ve been past that since 2020, you know, January 6, this idea of decorum, right? So, so, yeah, Democrats are definitely part of the issue that’s happening right now. Anyway, yeah I could go on <laughs>.
Vic: Ukraine. So during your time volunteering in Ukraine, do you acquire any chevrons?
David: Absolutely. Boy, quite a few. And unfortunately, I’m not a soldier, so I don’t have any to trade, you know. So it’s one of those things, but I’ve received a total of 1,2, 4- 4 different ones over the past- you know, times I was there. The two times I was there. Most recent one was from, do you know [Redacted][1] and [Redacted][2] in the SUB[3]? They’re-
Vic: Yeah.
David: [Redacted] does all the testing.
Vic: Yeah I’ve met [Redacted].
David: Yeah. So he speaks totally good English, and [Redacted], his girlfriend, one with the glasses kind of smaller. Doesn’t speak English, right? Yeah, so they’re a couple, and I got to know them, you know, fairly well when I was there for a month and I wrote them a letter. This would be equivalent of a Chevron, you know, I call it patches, but Chevron, same thing, you know, it’s the same thing. And I gave them a card, and I said, “Hey, you know, pleasure to meet you guys”. You know, just words of encouragement. I gave them some money to donate to their friends, to anyone you know. I said, “Take yourself on a date. I don’t care, you know”. And [Redacted] one was planning on giving, giving me a Chevron, giving me a patch, and it was from the International Aid Legion. So it’s a humanitarian, Ukrainian humanitarian organization that he volunteered for for the first, I don’t know, one and a half years, two years of the war. And then eventually he and his girlfriend moved out to Lviv to build drones full time.
So, so, you know that that friendship that developed, it was a symbol, you know that that patch that he gave me was a symbol of our friendship, and then that, you know, that card I gave him and [Redacted] were symbol of friendship and acknowledgement. I think that’s, yeah, that was, that’s probably one of the more memorable ones.
[Redacted 2][4], he gave me two. You know, [Redacted 2], he’s got connections and stuff, but, you know, meaningful still. And then I got one from another soldier that I helped when I was doing the volunteering with the soldiers, you know. So, yeah. Oh, and then also camo netting, actually, I guess. Got one from them, and got one from Richard. So I guess more than just three or four or five, maybe about five total, I guess.
Vic: Yeah. So, random [Redacted 2] Chevron’s aside, how did it feel to receive a chevron? Say from [Redacted]?
David: Yeah. We’ll just use [Redacted] since he the most recent one. One of the biggest honours, you know, of my life, to be honest. One of the biggest honours. I mean this idea that you are, that they are- the Ukrainians are giving, or, in certain cases, trading, but this idea that even if you are trading something that’s still the Ukrainian giving you something, right?
That idea that they would acknowledge you with a piece of them, it’s an extension of them, right? It’s this, this part that says, “I’ve sacrificed”. The Chevron represents sacrifice, and by me giving that Chevron to you, it’s, it’s acknowledging a shared sacrifice. It’s- you’re not military, but you’re civilian, and you’re here supporting the military. You’re supporting the people of Ukraine, and it’s acknowledgement. And so it’s a way of saying thanks and solidarity. It’s- we are here fighting together in many different capacities, you know.
So you know, by far the one that I got from a soldier, it was very special. I mean, he struggled as an American. He struggled getting home, just logistically, emotionally, getting settled. I mean, I was checking in with him. Actually I still check in with him. It’s far less frequent now, because he’s doing so well. Moved in with his girlfriend. But boy, when I, when I got home, I was in 2023 end of 23, I was talking to him almost weekly. And you know, it’s just taking it day by day, week by week, and then eventually went month to month. And that’s where he’s at right now, is we check in once every few months. And you know, I’ll never, I’ll never forget this guy, you know. He’s killed Russians, he’s, been on the front lines. He’s a warrior, you know. And he did some, you know, just some really, you know, shared some really tragic things, you know. I mean, you understand Vic, I mean, just the worst. He saw the worst of humanity. You know, absolutely, I can’t think of anything worse than some of the stories he shared with me.
So when he said, “Hey, I’m going to be giving you a patch”, from it was called Code 9.2, of his unit. Maybe you have heard of it. Code 9.2. He said, “you know, Dave, you know, I fought with a bunch of guys on the front and I, you know, respect them like brothers, and it’s family, you know, at that point”. But he said that “the stuff that you’ve done for me, you know, you’re as important as any of the soldiers that I fought with, and I genuinely mean that”. You know, just take it, you know.
It’s just words, you know, that that I used to help support him and something that’s symbolic, right? Like a chevron or a patch, is something that, yeah, it embodies- and I think also, you know, you talk about folklore- I think it is this idea like humans are like so- we like traditions and we like symbolism, right? Symbolism is huge, because we are living in a 3D world, you know, and our tactile sensation, you know? We’ve got to touch things, and that’s how we explore and how we connect with one another. So touch is really important and I think that being able to have a physical memento of something that was a shared experience, you know?
I’ve heard of them handing out patches to people that obviously have not been to Ukraine. Maybe they’re some of the soldiers that were visiting other places. I’ve even heard stories of, you know, people giving patches to strangers who were supportive of Ukraine. But there has to be an acknowledgement of extreme support of Ukraine. They’re not just handing them out, as you know, propaganda or promotion. It’s not promotional material, right? The Chevron is definitely not promotional. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s it, yeah.
But most recently, [Redacted], that patch, yeah, very, very, very, very meaningful to have that. And I didn’t bring much to Ukraine. You know, I just had a backpack, you know, large hiking backpack, so. It’s not like I could get a bunch of, you know, huge souvenirs, or heavy souvenirs. So having a Chevron, it’s like, oh just throw that in the bag. It’s, you know, not even an ounce, you know, so, and it’s something that a Ukrainian gave me.
In addition to that, actually, I got a flag from- you know, a lot of Ukrainians have their little miniature Ukrainian flags in the front of their cars. So, you know, when I was taking a taxi- this was in 2023, I was taking the taxi somewhere. I forget where, but, you know, the driver was interested that I was a foreigner. And, you know, I used Google Translator to explain what I was doing there. And he, you know, was just like, “take the flag”. And I was like, “ні ні ні ні ні[5]”. He’s like, “take it”. And you know, you gotta be humble. You can’t, you know, decline. It would be disrespectful. So he gave me his Ukrainian flag that he had in his taxi. I mean, that was equivalent to a civilian Chevron essentially, right? This idea of giving something, you know, this idea of a gift. And I think Ukrainians are pretty, pretty generous that way.
I got a block of cheese from a lady that I- you know, she was short of Hryvnia[6] on the маршрутка[7] going into Lviv, I was just like, “uh yeah, here”. Like, of course, you know, she gave me a block of cheese for, you know, spotting her. You know, I mean, that’s equivalent, in a sense, right? Like, yeah. I hope, does that answer or give you some good information?
Vic: Thank you, yeah. So on one of your trips, you also received a medal. How does that compare to a chevron in your mind?
David: Oh, you know, no different <laughs>. You know, if anything, I would say a Chevron is more indicative of a normal gesture. You know, a medal there’s some pomp and circumstance involved. And I’m not going to wear a medal, you know. I have a jacket that has one of the chevrons, one of the patches on it. And, you know, that’s something that you can wear in public and not be, you know, walking or- no one would walk around with a medal on their jacket, you’d feel like you’re full of it. But a chevron, like that’s common man wearing that on the front lines.
There’s no soldiers on the front line wearing medals shooting at Russians, you know. But some of those, you know, chevrons, you know, were present during combat, you know, where the ultimate sacrifice was potentially going to be taking place. And so yeah, I would say that the chevron is way more important. And for a lot of people, you know- I didn’t have, I’m not military, so I don’t have a chevron to give. But, you know, I did cards this time when I was there, because I knew there would be scenarios where I want to give something, you know. So words of support, words of respect, appreciation, you know, that that was my, my goal this time for the for the soldiers, as well as other people that I met that were, you know, it was meaningful.
Vic: So you actually wear the chevrons you received?
David: One, yeah, yeah. I’ve got a jacket that has, like, a little, it’s not a military jacket, but it’s like a hiking jacket, but it’s got, you know, Velcro on it, and I have a little Ukrainian flag. I mean, there’s people- even just yesterday, you know, it’s the winter here. I don’t really, you know, wear jackets any time but winter. But, you know, in America here, especially since Zelenskyy got berated by Trump and Vance in the White House, a lot of support for Ukraine.
So I’ve got a Ukraine hat that just says Ukraine on it. Pretty simple, straightforward, you know, simple message is the best. And people, people have asked questions, and people have, you know, given thumbs up. And I was talking to one guy yesterday, or two days ago. I was at a thrift shop, and he says, “Hey man, like the hat”. And I was like, “Oh, thanks, you know, passionate about Ukraine. And I was just there last week, actually”. He was like, “Oh, really”, you know, we started talking. So yeah, it’s a way- it’s solidarity, you know, it’s a symbol of solidarity and resistance and in a sense, also talking.
You know, it sparks conversation. You know, “what is that? Why are you wearing it?” And then it gives opportunity to spread awareness. You know, it’s about awareness. Especially here, across an ocean in a country that’s pretty selfish- at least half of the population are extremely, extremely selfish in America. So, yeah, I definitely wear it. I’m trying to think if I were any others… Yeah, most of them- I got the one from camo netting, and then I have- what do I have? Yes, it’s the camo netting one is what the one that I have on. But I’m gonna put on the International Aid Legion one from [Redacted] I think. That’s just kind of style, too. It’s kind of cool looking. You know? It’s fun. You don’t have take it super seriously all the time. But, yeah.
Vic: What do you do with the ones that you’re not wearing?
David: Oh, they’re in- I have a special drawer where I keep my special things, you know, mementos. I like to save things, you know. I’m not a hoarder by any means, but I’ve got a bunch of stuff from childhood that were that was very meaningful. I’m a big fan of history, and was able to- and family history as well, is able to uncover, most recently, a lot about my grandfather, who fought in World War Two in the Pacific. He didn’t serve in Europe. But you know, same thing, you know, it’s about fascism and Japanese in this case, Japanese Imperialism.
You know, he got wounded, he got shot, but we were able to dig up some records that weren’t digitized. We didn’t have the capability to see them because we didn’t have access to them, even though we requested them. There were a lot of records lost in a fire and we were able to piece together just before I left for Ukraine, actually. My grandpa in November- my grandfather’s service records, where he was, where he got wounded, when he got wounded. You know what unit he served in.
And I gave my dad, who’s unfortunately ill right now, he’s got ALS- I was able to track down the unit, his regiment, as well as the Corps he was in, and was able to get those two patches and I gave that to my dad with some pictures that him and I, you know- vacations that we went on, and things that we did just together. So I was able to give my dad some chevrons from his dad, even though they weren’t actually his, his dad’s, you know. So, it’s a symbol of sacrifice I think also. That’s something that the sacrifice word, the S word, as I like to call it- because that’s what it boils down to. It’s an acknowledgement of sacrifice, I think is also what it represents. It’s mutual when you trade them, you know, it’s a mutual acknowledgement of sacrifice. But, you know, yeah.
Vic: So when you say trade them do you- have you seen some soldiers like give their friend one from their unit, and in return, they get one from their unit?
David: Yeah, I hear that’s pretty common. But, I’ve seen it- I’ve seen it in person once or twice, but then I’ve heard about it multiple times where, you know, some of the soldiers, like, you know patches. I don’t recall the exact time or when I heard that, that it’s common to exchange, but I think it also happens with when Ukrainians would go and train in other NATO countries, they would exchange patches, that’s very common. But I don’t think it happens that much. The thing that happens more between maybe foreign soldiers and Ukrainians. I don’t want to speak with authority specifically on the rate that patches or chevrons are exchanged, but yeah. Hope that answers the question.
Vic: Cool, yeah. So you mentioned it earlier in this interview, and I was with you when it happened- you brought some patches from American soldiers to give to wounded soldiers in hospital in Lviv currently.
David: I did. Yeah, I’ll tell you a little bit about that. So, you know, coming back the second time I was thinking about how I wanted to honour the soldiers. I knew I was going to be going to the hospital at least once. I wanted to go more but, you know, there weren’t so many opportunities. Because the soldiers are the war. Those are the guys and gals that are putting everything on the line for freedom and democracy in Ukraine, as well as, you know, the rest of the world- the West anyway.
So, and I knew that they appreciate patches, you know, like chevrons. It’s a thing. I learned that from being there in 2023. So I was like, “How do I get a bunch of used, worn American military patches, chevrons”, and so I went on to Reddit. I’m a big, big Redditor. I love Reddit, great source of information. Generally pretty trustworthy people I find actually on there, there’s some vetting you can do pretty easily. But I went to the veterans subreddit and I made a post talking about what I was going to be doing, and a bunch of negative feedback, as well as a bunch of positive feedback. I had people reach out to me and say, “Absolutely, send me your address, I’ll happily mail you some”. So I ended up getting, like, way more than I I was expecting. I probably got about 30 patches.
So some unit patches, some, you know, they call it name tape- so, like US Army, you know, it’s like the, you can rip it off and put on other ones, you know. So, got a bunch of US Army ones. Got those name tapes, got ranks. I got a bunch of ranks, as well as, like I said, unit patches that I put into a bunch of cards that I handed out.
Not sure if you saw that, I handed out some card when we were teaching English or having conversations, whatever. So I was able to stuff those full of patches, as well as letters from some of the people that donated these patches. So, you know, huge words of encouragement. The one in particular, the one soldier I was sitting next to- [Redacted 3][8], if that rings a bell, lost his arm right? So he- you know, such a young guy, boy. But I decided to give him one of the longer letters and some of the patches from this one US veteran who- he pretty much said in the letter- and he’d have no problem with me repeating this because he said I could, but he said, you know, “I can’t express how sad I am that I can’t be there right now fighting beside you”. He says, “I have a family. You know, I have priorities here at home”. He did a great job explaining his rationale for, for why he was sad, essentially, and why he wants to be there.
But, you know, this just outpouring of support to this random Ukrainian soldier that I decided- so I was getting these patches, which is such an honour from these, these veterans, you know, I could have been Joe Blow, you know, crazy patch collector and, you know, lied through my teeth. But, you know, I find that Reddit can give you some good results, you know. Also one of the other guys was like, “I’m trying to get rid of them anyway. So just like, take them all”. And I’m “like, oh, I only need, like, three or four from you. I’ve got a bunch of others come in from other people”. And actually there’s actually two male soldiers and two females. So I got four different people donating it, and they’ve donated between the four of them about 30 patches each, or not each together. I’m trying to remember all the units now. First Armoured Brigade. What else? I’d have to look them up..
Vic: It’s fine. What was the reception of bringing those over?
David: Yeah, I, I did not- no one opened it in front of me, you know, so, and that’s okay. It’s not about me or watching the reaction. And, you know, I told the people that donated, “hey, if I can, I’ll get pictures, but I can’t guarantee it”, you know, trying to read the room. It was like the guys would just take them and open them and read them on their own, you know. And who knows what they’ll do with them, right?
So yeah, I hope it went over well, I mean. But to be honest, Vic, and this is probably- I’m not sure if it could be relevant, but definitely contributed to my experience. As we were going to be going, you know, to the hospital to do the English session. That’s when Donald Trump was starting to betray Ukraine. And for me, and these veterans, you know, I felt like, in my opinion, these mean less, in my opinion, as an American citizen. So I felt a little bit embarrassed, or I question myself. This just means less maybe to them. You know, that stuff went through my head.
I wasn’t prepared to not give it to him because that was the agreement between me and the veteran, the American veterans that gave me the patches. And some of them are more used, you know, they were, like, not ripped, but that you could definitely tell that like, you know, they were worn by an American vet. And, you know, whether it be in Afghanistan or Iraq or, you know, just deployed locally, you know, domestically, and other places that were, you know, were at peace, like Germany, Italy, you know, they were definitely worn.
So I- I wasn’t prepared to be like, I can’t do this because it makes me uncomfortable. I just like, I’m sure the sure the vet would be feeling the same way right now, the ones that gave the patches that you know, this idea of solidarity, it just means less when you don’t have the backing of our elected leaders of our government. So the value of a chevron, it only has value because both parties agree on certain values. Otherwise, there’d be no reason to trade it or give it, you know, it’d be like, you know, I’m not trying to get patches from North Korea. <laughs> There’s no value there for me or any soldier, probably from the west. Other than novelty, there would be no way, you know, I just don’t respect the government there, you know. So, yeah, yeah.
Vic: Did you end up buying yourself any chevrons? I know that they’re quite common in the various souvenir shops around Lviv.
David: They are, they are! I bought some Ukrainian flag chevrons- Ukrainian flag patches. I got a bunch of mini ones to hand out to friends, kids of friends. From the last time I was there ‘23 I got a bunch for very close friends and family. So, you know, that’s just, you know, patches. You know, of the Ukrainian flag is just essentially a small Ukrainian flag. And there is a military connotation when there’s Velcro on it, I think, you know. So, it’s not just a flag, it’s also acknowledging it’s a military flag as well as a national flag. Maybe that’s also an important distinction, maybe between a patch and an actual flag. So, yeah, no military ones, though! Yeah, I didn’t get any military ones. I just didn’t feel- this is just me, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it, if anyone does it, but, like, I don’t feel it would be appropriate. I feel for me to hand out as a souvenir, a unit- the Ukrainian unit’s patch, you know, just a personal preference.
Vic: Say there was a military unit that you wanted to support. Maybe you’ve donated money to them elsewhere, and you then saw their patch for sale in a souvenir shop. Would you feel comfortable buying the patch and putting it on a backpack?
David: Um, would I put it on a backpack? Well, I don’t have a backpack that has any Velcro on it… I don’t see there’s anything wrong with it, you know, there wouldn’t be any like, you know- because I’m a civilian dressed like a civilian, I don’t dress military. I don’t think there would be any chance of stolen valour type scenario, right? If, if someone was civilian wearing military clothing and had a patch from a unit with maybe a military style backpack, or, you know, a neutral colour backpack, you know, all in colour- then that starts getting into stolen valour territory. So probably, for me personally, I probably wouldn’t put it on a backpack or wear it unless it was given. If it was given, I wouldn’t have a problem with that, but buying one and putting it on, I’m just not sure if I would do that. But, I don’t- look if other people did it, I wouldn’t look at as negative, because I wouldn’t know or care necessarily how they got it. You know, I’m not going to question them. So if they’re dressed like a civilian, I’m not going to be like, “Hey did a soldier give that to you?”
It’s a personal relationship too, you know, there’s no right or wrong, unless you start getting into stolen valour territory, which I didn’t see really anyone when I was in Ukraine. Any civilians or, you know, Western expat volunteers do that.
Vic: Well you know, there’s that one that uhhh-
David: Oh! Yeah, that guy[9] <laughs> Boy, he was, yeah, there’s always going to be one, right? But yeah. I mean, a lot of, I found that a lot of- and I’ve seen it before, not just one. I’ve definitely seen it before. I’m like, “That guy just doesn’t look like he got those patches from a soldier” <laughs>. There’s a certain way that they carry themselves where I’m like, “Oh, you’re just, you’re cosplaying as a as a soldier, or wannabe soldier”. And, yeah, I think those people do that, especially the one guy we know- they, their motivation for being in Ukraine is most likely different than yours and mine. And with that comes less healthy boundaries with things like- all right, big deal, stolen valour. You know, “I’m here in Ukraine, and, I’ve been through, you know, I’ve helped, I volunteered, I’ve heard Shaheds so I’m pretty much a soldier”, and it’s like, what are you talking about? No you’re not, in any capacity, because you heard Shaheds or cruise missiles going off. Like, yeah, there’s no difference between you and any other volunteer or Ukrainian experiencing it, you know- because Ukrainians listen to cruise missiles and Shaheds explode, that doesn’t make them soldiers, you know, they’re still civilians. So, you know.
But yeah, other than that guy and maybe some other ones, you know, I hardly saw any stolen valour in Ukraine. Definitely like a military attitude, though. You know, so- and again, I don’t have necessarily any problem with it, but, you know, military gear would be worn by civilians, just, I think, maybe as a symbol of solidarity. But as long as there’s no stolen valour, I don’t give a f- do whatever you want.
Vic: In your mind, if a soldier gifts you a Chevron, is that implied permission to wear it and display it?
David: I think so. I never asked them. But for me, the patches that I got? Yeah, I would have no problem wearing them whatsoever, and I’d explain, because- part of that- it’s earned, you know, it’s not a handout. It’s why- if you have a patch from a soldier or a civilian organization that has patches, because, you know, it’s part of the culture over in Ukraine even civilian volunteer organizations. Obviously, it’s earned, it’s not given. I mean, that’s part of the reason- maybe I would have wanted to put it somewhere, I don’t know, if it wasn’t given. But for me, yeah, I would only wear it if I was given, because it’s earned. Yeah, that’s my two cents.
Vic: Say you saw someone who’s got one of the big Velcro patch sections on their bag, and the- that section is covered in chevrons, like they’ve obviously just been to a store and bought a bunch of them. Do you make any assumptions about that person? If you see them?
David: Do I make any assumptions? It’s a hypothetical because I haven’t seen that, but I’ve seen people with patches on backpacks. Or, you know, on their on their sleeves, you know, in other places too. On their head, hats. But would I assume anything? If I knew, if I was able to verify that they weren’t given those I would maybe assume that, or I would question, I go, “is this person here for the right reasons, or is this person here out of selflessness as the primary motivator to be in Ukraine?”. Or would it be partially ego driven? Or war tourism? Or, yeah, that would probably be the two things that, if you look at the driving force would be part of the egos. “Look at me, look at look what I’ve done”, right? Versus you know, because there- I think there is a certain level of implied- implied altruism, maybe with a patch that has been given from a soldier to a civilian.
I think it may get specific with you know, why does someone have a patch? Why does someone have a chevron? And it usually is because of an acknowledgement of a sacrifice that the civilian- in my case, it’s an acknowledgement of, “hey, you’re here with us, the least I could do is give you a small gift from me”, it’s- that’s what it really boils down to. I think, as I’m thinking about this more Vic, it’s a part of them that they’re giving to you, and that part of them is sacrifice. I mean, the soldiers and the civilians, like in the case of [Redacted] he was never a soldier, but his organization, that’s all they did, was evacuate soldiers and civilians. And you know, they were on the front lines just as much as a soldier, right? They were more on the rear, but they were still, you know, at the front line. And so they’re giving a part of their sacrifice to you, and acknowledging- it’s an acknowledgement of sacrifice, I think maybe is what I’m trying to get at. Maybe as I’m processing all this real time, but you’re asking some awesome questions.
Vic: Thank you. Yeah, that’s actually all the questions that I had. Do you have any general things you want to say about chevrons, or?
David: I think I shared everything. I kind of went really deep into it, hopefully, I gave you a good bunch of meat. You can, you can dissect that, and, you know, some good quotes in there, maybe. But what else? Oh, yes. One other thing. As I was thinking about our, you know, our upcoming conversation that we’re having now, I was thinking a lot of restaurants, pubs, stores, you know, places in Ukraine have their walls of chevrons.
Vic: Yeah, I’m planning to go to Kryivka tomorrow so I can take pictures of all of the ones there.
David: Yeah, so- and I’ve seen Richard’s patch[10], you know, at various locations, at pubs. But I think, you know, the more you have, the more vet friendly you are, maybe? Or more soldier friendly, right? You walk in there, it’s an instant acknowledgement that this business support soldiers. This business acknowledges the war that’s going on. Because some businesses don’t, and some Ukrainians don’t, you know, they just want- the freedom to choose is also the freedom to do nothing and for businesses to display those patches. You know, it’s the soldier acknowledging the business, or who works there in this case, as being supportive of Ukraine’s resistance to Russia. So, yeah, I would say that a business or a pub, in this case, a restaurant that has a lot of chevrons, could claim that they’re soldier friendly, you know. That’s what I would assume anyway. Maybe that’s just a little bit more of a titbit of information.
Vic: That’s an interesting thought. So do you- when you go into a bar or cafe, do you look around and see if you can see any chevrons?
David: They’re usually pretty prominently displayed. You know, if there’s a lot, yeah, it’s hard to, hard to miss them. I think I’m trying to think of, there’s an Irish Pub there that has a bunch- not saying that there’s, you know, if you only- there’s no ranking. It’s not like, “Oh, you only have 20 versus 50”. But, you know, it’s just also real estate, you know, how big is the business or pub? If you got a big restaurant, you’re gonna be able to feature more, you know? So it’s, yeah, it’s leaving behind a part of you, because a lot of these soldiers, they end up going back to the front lines- you know, Lviv obviously, is a reprieve for a lot of soldiers to, you know, go on vacation or go on leave, you know, to be safe, pretty much. And so for them to leave something behind, saying, “Oh, yeah”. I mean, maybe they come back one day and go, like, “yeah, I was here kids. Look at my patch on the wall there that was back in, you know, 2024 I was in Lviv, and I was able to leave that patch on the wall and look, it’s collecting dust here”. So it’s a memento, a memento leaving behind a something for future generations too, maybe something like that. I don’t think those, I don’t think those patches are ever coming down, ever, you know, they’re going to be up there for the rest of that business or establishments lifetime.
Vic: Do you think after the war they’re going to have issues with tourists trying to buy them or steal them off the wall?
David: Oh, that’s a great- man, Vic, you’re asking some phenomenal questions. You have no idea. You know, if people are there visiting Ukraine after the war, especially after whenever happens- and you know, hopefully, it is a just peace for Ukraine. If they’re there pretty soon after the war, I would assume that they’re supportive of Ukraine. So I would probably say that hopefully not? But yeah. I mean, people are crazy. People are selfish, you know, yeah, that would give me answer.
Vic: Yeah, just, will they become a generic tourist souvenir and lose some of the meaning? Do you think?
David: Yeah I mean, definitely, you know, I would definitely promote buying Ukrainian flag patches. Like, that’s something that is, you know? I would say simple for everyone, you know, as long as you’re not using it in a stolen valour sense, right? Then I would say yeah, more Ukrainian flags out there, more Ukrainian patches out there, the better.
When it comes to specific units. It’s like, you know, usually when you’re giving a patch, you know, when you start basic training in any military, like, you don’t have any of those patches, you know, and then you’re given one, you know, after you’re assigned a unit. Like, that’s- you’re earning that you know, when you’re assigned to the unit. So I forget the- I think it might be Azov? It might be a special unit within Azov? Where- I have to research this, and I don’t want to claim 100% authority on this, but I remember hearing or reading that there’s some units that you’re not allowed to give away the patch to anyone. It’s just your unit. It’s your patch. No one deserves this except you, you know. So, yeah. But, Ukrainian flag patches, more the merrier.
Vic: Yeah. I was speaking to a friend who makes drones in Kyiv, and a unit that he’s worked with in the past- they have two separate styles of patches. They have the ones for their soldiers, and then they have the ones that they can give out to friends and volunteers.
David: Love it, yeah. Love it. It builds cohesion, unit cohesion. When you see that patch that is exclusive to people who have specifically earned it, you know- not saying the units that give out patches, you know, don’t have that unit cohesion, but there is something to be said about, yeah, having a unique patch only for the soldiers- or only allowed to have a soldier wear. I think that that definitely could help with unit cohesion and identity, for sure, because of the stakes that everything is. It’s the highest stakes, you know, all the time, those guys and gals.
Vic: So would that cohesion come from, you know, they’re all dressed the same, they’re all wearing the same symbol, or?
David: I would say that it’s, it’s a subconscious reminder. You know when you see that- you know, obviously, you know when you’re wearing, whether it be, you know, a dress uniform or your combat uniform- It’s a symbol- it’s a notifier of what unit you belong to. So in the case for cohesion, it’s, yeah, it’s most basic function is identifying. So when you have something that exclusively identifies you, there’s no way for you to be any other unit, yeah, except- or any imposter, you know. So if someone has that on, you know they are, who they are, versus me, or maybe you, or we can technically try to do stolen valour with some of these patches we have, but for guys that you know, they’re told not to give them out, it’s like there’s instant trust there, I would say. Especially because it’s probably an elite unit, right? There’s, certain assumptions that you could probably make with certain patches that guys and gals wear in the military, and that goes for any military, I’d assume.
Vic: Cool. All right, that was great. Yeah, thank you for your time.
David: So good to see you as always! And you know, next time, and I keep- I say this to my Ukrainian friends and my friends- like I really, genuinely hope the next time I get to see you in person will be a just peace in Ukraine, and we have to keep hope that that is possible. We just have to, right? So keep up with the good fight. Keep doing what you’re doing and see you hopefully later!
Vic: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for your time.
[1] Ukrainian volunteer
[2] Ukrainian volunteer
[3] Nickname for a specific volunteering location
[4] Ukrainian soldier
[5] Ukrainian word for “no”
[6] Currency of Ukraine
[7] Ukrainian share taxi- often minibuses or smaller buses, they run routes to areas underserviced by buses, trams, or other public transportation.
[8] Soldier in a military clinic in Lviv specialising in amputee recovery
[9] There’s a relatively infamous expat in Lviv who is known for dressing in military uniform and harassing local women.
[10] Interesting to note that he calls it Richard’s patch rather than the FLK patch